Addenum to Loot Distribution:
In case you cant see EQGP Section: (Repeat) One of the things that has been slowing the loot distribution at the end of each fight is well looking up each person who bid's PR (which is equal to EP / GP ) ...priority rating = effort points / gear points From now on, when you are bidding for an item you need to state the following: 1) Link item it will be replacing 2) Type your Priority rating down next to it. 3) State the main stat upgrade that you are going for: a few words here is sufficient.... ex: "gives me over 20 more hit rating etc etc." EXAMPLE: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30249 T5 Shoulders Token for Priests/Druids/Warriors have dropped. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30117 is the item for tanks. I Link my T4 shoulders.... http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29016 & my Priority rating: 17.74. I will know before bidding on it that: This armor gives me 120 more hp (blue gem will def get 12 stam), I trade 32 block rating vs 26 dodge rating and gain an additional 12 defense as well as agility that willg ive me more dodge so that I can switch my other gear around to maximize hp or do whatever else I need to do. Since my dodge rating is already 24.5% without proccing mongoose and my Block rating is only 28% and should be around 30%+, T5 > my current T4. Please note: It is up to YOU to know how good the upgrade is for you. Sure you may be wearing leather as a shaman, but what if that leather you are wearing is actually better for you vs the mail you are bidding on? ALSO After you win items, your PR should drop to allow for others in line to get upgrades. The point is: Know what the upgrade (especially T4 & T5) will look like..i'm sure several people have loot linking abilities if necessary and you didnt take the time to look up the drop yourself. Last note: We have been going by Priority rating more and more often. KEEP IN MIND: If you have a higher Priority rating than another person and you lost, this may be a function of a couple things: a) The person was a tank or a healer that would benefit the guild MORE for that item than it will benefit you.... or b) that person for some reason has a higher PR but is not yet a member. EFFECTIVE TODDAY: 12/13/07 RECAP: Link your item & PR and know what the item is upgrading for you. If you have significantly much lower PR than a lot of bidders....don't expect to win. LAST ITEM: You will be charged if the item is a clear upgrade for you. The only time you will no longer be charged is if the item is for an offspec/sidegrade that no one really wants. This is a going-forward change.

Please, Please, Please, don't decide to not charge for drops reguardless of the circumstance. This would only most likely cause problems down the road. I have seen this happen, when you go with a type a dkp system you have to go all or nothing. Senario 1: Players won't bid on upgrades in hopes that no one else will so they can recieve thus item w/o a charge. Distribution takes alot longer because you sit there, no one wants, sit ther no one wants... about to be DE'd and 5 people suddenly shout out that they want it..and or item gets de'd even tho it's a upgrade because people wont spend points. Senario 2: Player recieves a ton of "free" upgrades by no one else bidding on said items. A real upgrade for alot of people drops and that player wins the item, and any others they want cause they are so far ahead in the dkp system by getting upgrades for free that others have no real chance of recieving it. Senario 3: New player joins guild down the road, no one else needs the drops anymore so they get everything free of charge, same as above. Player accumulates piles of dkp and older members dont get the upgrades they need over a new recruit. Senario 4: Guild bank dies - Item drops for free when no one wants them causes people to take for "way-off specs, second sets etc" leaves no items left to be de'd, no shards to do enchants etc with. I have seen this happen too many times and it can only cause problems down the road. Please rethink this decision. On a side note: Question, do i really need to know what my PR is? I don't want to know honestly, if i get a item great, if i don't it will drop another day. I don't want to worry if i have enough to get a item, worry who might be higher or whatever. I'd rather just leave it to the fates, if it's a better up for someone else i'd rather have them have it.

Sap, Thanks for the feedback. There is no perfect way to go and there are flaws with each approach. We will continue to discuss this and make any changes we think might be best for the long run. I too am concerned with some of the items you noted.... I will discuss these with the officers, but anyone else with feedback would be great. Keep in mind, the officers and I are trying to maintain the big picture. What will be most beneficial to the whole guild, and what will continue to work in the long run.... Maybe we charge half points for offspecs that may actually be used in the future or 1/4 pts for those offspecs like a shadow priest getting healing gear. Who knows, we are still looking for a finalized version.

Not that I'm going to get drops for a long time give my recent success in Gruuls (thanks to all, FYI- I love my new shoulders, belt and pants) but I'm still kind of confused in the whole DKP think- I’ve read all the posts, and installed the EQDP application, looked at the EP/PR and all that, and I still can’t tell which number is the one I need to focus on. The issue is further compounded by the whole “Druid” aspect of my toon. I’m Balance spec, w/ bits of resto, and in Gruuls/TK, I’m strictly called upon as Spell DPS; the role-strain come when looking to farming Kara- in Kara, I’m typically three “main specs” depending on the boss/area in Kara we’re at. An example- in most boss fights, I’m Spell DPS. However, when clearing trash to Shade of Aran, half of the mobs are 100 percent immune to magic, necessitating my Cat/melee DPS form. The situation is similar in the Nightbane fight, as I slip into heal gear to supplement the heal team on that long, healing-intensive fight. (Side note: I totally agree that Tanks and main spec healers need to be the priority, as well as main spec- hence my always calling out “Off-spec” on Cat/Healing drops- Bear set seems wasted, but I do take them if no one else wants them.) So, what’s a Druid (with an identity crisis, apparently) to do when, say Tier 4 shoulders/pants drop, and I have my “main Spell DPS spec?” Better question, how can we continue to gear the guild up without multi-spec characters looking gear-greedy or selfish? (I’m betting that there are Warrior Tanks/DPS sets and Paladin Tank/heal sets/retribution sets & DPS Shaman/heal sets that are wondering the same thing…) The last thing I want to have happen is for guild members thinking that certain players are getting special treatment, or that they’ll not get progression gear because they are “just DPS”. Any thoughts?

Offspec stuff should be free. Would you rather see something de'd than used by someone for an offspec? Do you want to see our tanks spend dkp on offspec stuff and then lack on tanking because they didn't have enough to purchase tank gear? Offspec works because people can't bid on it unless no one with priority needs it. Making it cost dkp is just going to lead to that player having less dkp for their main role and benefit classes that don't really have an "off" spec. I don't see why it has to be all or nothing. Saying that is basically trying to close discussion on something I think should be open. As far as the guild bank goes, if we need VCs badly we can always run kara and pick them up. After people are decently geared of course. "Why couldn't Dunnit keep up the tank? Oh he purchased offspec stuff and we gave healing ups to someone else who isn't here."

Wykyn, I do kind of see what your saying. But the main thing is that you are boomkin and you are a spell dps guy. That is therefore your current main raid spec. If we have you healing in a raid, we are PRETTY DESPERATE for a healer and it wouldnt happen often, and for you to go to catform would just be silly, unless its like the ghosts in Kara which are immune but I dont count kara as a hard raid and theres more flexibility in Kara and you can get more creative in Kara as well. Small situational areas like nightbane (the 3 healers assigned should be able to handle it unless you only have 2)...for example When I take 2 healers and Dyandra is with me, since she is prot and cant do much dps and can help heal, she assists with haels while still tanking some of the skellies. In your case, you are probably most helpful dpsing even on nightbane. No reason why the healers cant keep the tank up but there are exceptions here like when a healer dies. The gearing your offspec should be done mostly in Heroics and in kara when it is about to go de'd. I would try and save your dkp in 25 mans for boomkin gear (your main raid spec). That's just how I see it. Whatever will benefit the guild the most is always what the officers and I are trying to accomplish and your efforts and energy in the raids is always appreciated. BTW wykyn if you press J in game, you want the number in the far right column under PR.... i believe it lists EP then GP then PR and PR = EP/GP

And to add to that, when things arent needed by main specs, offspecs getting it for free I feel is to reward those for coming on raiding and progressing to the point where offspecs can get gear in the first place....... Offspec gearing is not greedy unless you try to outbid main specs which shouldnt ever happen anyway and should be clearly seen by officers.

PR (loot priority) is the rating that determines your likelihood of winning a bid; that's the relevant number. It is, essentially, "how much raid loot money you have at the moment". Typically, if someone else has a higher PR than you do, they will win if they bid against you. After this, their PR normally is much lower afterward. Knowing your own PR speeds up the process of loot distribution; otherwise, the loot master has to scroll up and down through 25 or more players to see who's over whom. In addition, this person is usually doing real time updates to points earned, calculating costs of loot distributed, trying to keep up with the chat window while 10 people spam macros that make seeing bids more difficult, etc. Spending more time distributing loot than it did to kill the actual boss -*test*-('")s everyone's patience, so anything that speeds up the process is good. Offspecs, so far, have not been charged any amount of GP, to the best of my knowledge; offspec bids are ignored if someone is bidding for main spec and haven't been counted against the "no competing bid = free" rule. If people are trying to "game the system" by not bidding in the hopes of getting something for free, I think that's better addressed by saying "don't do that; you're not fooling anyone". Any DKP system can be manipulated and abused; it's simply bad for raid progression when it happens. The objective is to get geared up for the next stage of raids, not to accumulate as many personal epics as possible. If it's an upgrade and you want it, bid. If it's so minor or situational that it's not worth paying DKP for, but several people would "use it rather than see it sharded", /random it off for free as a secondary distribution method. If this becomes a standard "evade the intent of EPGP" habit, we can always just say "if you didn't value it 30 seconds ago, we're sharding it now" until people stop trying to get free loot.

Good post Cae. I agree with most everything that people are writing, and it makes me happy to see that people are reading and responding to threads. Unfortunately, it is often the people that don't check the forum that get upset by things.... In my personal opinion, DKP is simply a tool to help reward people that frequently attend raids and to expediate the process of loot distribution. No system is perfect as stated, it is just a matter of what will work the best and keep the most people happy. With 25 people in a raid, and only 3 -4 items dropping, it is inevitable that people get mad. This really frustrates and disappoints me, because frankly, when people get mad about loot, it shows me that they are not team players. We are here to help one another and to progress together, not to compete for loot and act like 5 year olds when we dont get it. Yes, the officers sometimes will not make the best of decisions, but we are trying our damn well best to. That's why we are asking for help. We don't have 15 minutes to waste trying to figure out, ok, his PR is this, oh wait her's is this, but he will get this increase etc. We are one team, and we should always be trying to help out one another as much as we can. In terms of hording DKP. This should absolutely never be done. For example, you really really want something from Void Reaver...well you have crappy blue dungeon shoulders and the T4 token in gruuls drops but you don't roll because you are thinking of VR. That's just crap, you aren't helping the guild at all. When something is an obvious up, and im not talking +24 intell vs +21 intell, you should roll and not hord. In terms of offspec, yes, i think offspecs should get loot for free if no one else needs...and i mean NO ONE. We will always be running Kara, and now that most people are fully geared, getting lots of voids. I do believe though that certain off-specs should get priority...i.e. healing.

Wow, so I had no idea my post would cause such a ruckus! I’ll respond as I see the points made- Dee- I totally agree that for 25 man raids, I’m so the Spell DPS guy. I agree with your statement that this is my primary spec, and should be rolling/bidding DKP on that set only. As far as the Kara sets go, Cat form is a reality, if I am to be a constant DPS source throughout the run, but I also agree that heroic/badge gear is fine for upgrades; the same goes for heal gear sets. You have satisfactorily answered my inquiry as to off-spec bidding (IE- only if no one else can use it for a main spec and It’s going to be sharded or what naught, and no DPK or a lesser DKP charge will apply- TBD at a later date). The only thing that’s “fuzzy” may not even be an issue anymore, and that’s on priority when it comes to Initiates main and member off-spec (I’ll let the officers figure that out!). As far as the Kara off healing goes, all I can say is that group 2, or the “late” group, or whatever you want to call it (the one you’re not in Dee) tends to be consistently weaker in some fasion, hence the need for me to off-heal in the Nightbane fight. We haven’t yet successfully done Prince or Netherspite, and only got Illhoof down because Dyandra was main tanking for group 2 once so I can’t intelligently comment to what roll I’d play in these fights- I suspect that I’d be on one of the “tank teams” on Netherspite while doing spell DPS, and most likely spell DPS on Prince and Illhoof as well. I guess only time will tell.

Thats fine. Group 2 issues will be fixed and we are continue to vary up who tanks what. Next week: Tomringo and I are group 1. Dyandra/ Amilane/Chidori are group 2. * Amilane may be at the point where he can tank nightbane but itll be tough, he still needs Shoulders and a new BP and shield and I think he's set besides that. It is hard to keep everyone happy since this person wants to be with this person, and I'm always trying to change who is in what groups etc etc, but yes the officers and I realize the frustrations and are workign to address them.

@hoarding points: EPGP is specifically designed to punish hoarding. Very soon, possibly next Monday, we will start using the Decay tool; once that starts, the longer you hoard points, the less each point is worth. This mechanic is designed for (and works very well for) encouraging people to buy upgrades as they appear. One of the main reasons for using EPGP over other systems is that the designers were aware of most of the innate flaws in DKP systems and took steps to address them. As long as we don't deviate far from the intended use of the system, it works very well over the long term. A lot of the "issues" we're encountering at the moment are due to the newness of using DKP at all; points spike up and down, people's general gear level is widely varied, and so on. A month or so down the road, the entire system will be more stable and everyone will see a steady and predictable loot distribution process.

Thank you Cae for clearing that up. Please be aware everyone that the officers are working hard on addressing loot issues.