only thing I have to say for now is that offspec roles are easy to spot, us officers are not stupid and we can tell and discuss all this in officer chat before decisions are made. If we want to give off spec items for free instead of sharding them perhaps we should do some sort of gold charge or something. I paid 15g for kings defender instead of it being vendored (no chanter in group) and I am fine with that. It would be unfair for me to rob the guild of 2 shards just because I wanted something. Of course I would make the exception of pally's, druids and priests rolling on healing/tanking offspec gear that can benifit the whole guild but if a holy pally wants something for a ret set pay dkp or gold to replace shards imo. You will not help the guild getting a ret item any more then I will help rolling on a dagger or kings defender. Also uncon-*test*-('")ed loot should be charged just like any other normal item and sap alrady listed the reasons why. It really is not fair for people to get free loot under any circumstance and then have just as good of PR as someone who has gotten nothing and its also unfair to everyone else who got the item and paid for it. If you have not gotten something and are the last to get it and nobody else rolls thats because you had lower PR and to get something for free would destroy the loot cycle that dkp strives to maintain in the first place.

I get what your saying Esa. I think otherlando meant.....look no main needs that pally helm in raid, but we have a palyl makign a ret set that would be willing to pay 2 voids or 40g to have it. This is what I think he meant. People can get their gear they want for offspecs but still having benefit to the overall guild by getting money or voids in the bank. Its semi balancing act, we will hopefully have a finalized version in the near future.

Is our DKP useless?
Deestoyr wrote: KEEP IN MIND: If you have a higher Priority rating than another person and you lost, this may be a function of a couple things: a) The person was a tank or a healer that would benefit the guild MORE for that item than it will benefit you.... or b) that person for some reason has a higher PR but is not yet a member. do we need a 'c)' stating that "... that the person who has highest PR will be bombared with whispers influencing the person to pass because of other members who wish not to better their gear outside of raiding" this is an issue that has to be addressed whether or not we do abide by these rules ( a and b only ) or we are breaking these rules simply for one's own personal gain. i would like to know asap . -wamba i dont want a 'it makes sense' or reasonable explanation or it betters the guild. bettering the guild is preparing for an attempt of a raid encounter. as i see it, dkp is useless for all dpser's when it comes to gearing the tank or priests at the discretion of the guild officers or gm (this is from 'a' as mentioned earlier). my issue is not with 'a'. but with 'c' (mentioned earlier). i am not talking about how ppl behave or act. i dont care about that. i want a solid rule system for our guild. we are making up rules as we progress through higher content and it is leaving out particular members in the cold. yes, making up rules is saying like the following: 'your gear is equivalent to what dropped, it makes no sense for you to have it because this other guildie who is lazy and doesnt better prepare himself for this encounter needs it. it is an up for him. Keeping farming on your main, buy badge gear, do dailies, buy patterns, and mats and GET YOUR RAID GEAR that way, while this lazy ass hopss on his/her billionth alt and goofs around doing pvp and alike.' what is on your mind PR? -wamba

Not exactly sure what you're trying to get at here Wamba....... I do distribution in such a way that its driven mostly by PR. In most cases i go by Priority Rating because of that person earning it etc. However, if there's someone that's going to get a bigger upgrade out of an item where the person (with higher PR) will probably just throw something in a bank or get 1 str more out of an item and another person will get a huge upgrade from it, someone who raids often, i will pass to that person. For me its basically come down to the idea of the team > the person. Even if the person didnt win that item, hes still ahead of everyone else on PR and can get much better items in the long run and from other bosses. At the same time, the weaker person (obviously this only happens if hte person getting the item is an established member), can help the guild progress even further. I run this guild on the basis that on a item per item basis, it doesnt matter, the long run success of the guild far outweighs the importance of 1 petty item. There is not 1 item that has been distributed to a guidlie where it was completely unfair or unreasonable. So lets say an item gives healer a) +5 healing and it gives another healer +60 healing and 10 intellect. It just doesnt make much sense for that person to bother taking that item over the 2nd person. Why you must ask? This isnt a matter of who has higher PR, this is a simple matter of common courtesy that i expect most people to have wihtout even asking. I'll give you an example myself: Morogrim drops a ring i've been wanting for so long, instead i dropped 60 badges on some 2.4 tank ring that was better for druids, but better than what i had. Morogrim dropped that ring the next raid. While i probably could have used it in some scenarios, i passed to Illblood since he had much worse tank rings. Why? Is it because he's lazy? Does he have 100 alts? No, those questions are irrelevant, he's a loyal member and it benefits the guild more if he got hte ring and was able to tank in many cases, whether it be ZA, or MH when we are short on tanks, or any other raid, and he is more than willing to do so. Is it fair to me? I dont know, people could argue both ways. I saw it as an opportunity to further strengthen PR at a minor expense, my own interest. People in PR need to understand that not every single decision is about them, but its about PR as a whole. The success of PR comes not from the fact that we are all incredible players or hell "good" players, but from the culture that i've tried to foster from PR's inception. While we run loot distribution on a Priority basis, there are simply some things that would go beyond this and it would not make sense to follow PR for some items. If you still want a straight up rule for all cases, well my answer is, it wont happen. There simply isnt 1 rule that can encompass all situations and possibiltiies, not to mention please 100% of all people. My job is not to please 100% of people, but to come up with the fairest solutions, and in some cases, it has to be done on a case by case basis. And in no means, am i encouraging laziness on the parts of people to work on other characters when their main can be improved. I'm simply stating that there cannot be a rule that will cover every single situation that may arise, especially when it comes to Loot. The Manifesto also reminds people that this guild is not driven by Loot but by teamwork and synergy which drives the success of the guild and in turn leads to "loot" for everyone in the long run.

that the person who has highest PR will be bombared with whispers influencing the person to pass because of other members who wish not to better their gear outside of raiding" As far as people sending tells to another person to pass. IT IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE PERSON WHO IS BIDDING / HAS THE PR, to decide WHETHER OR NOT HE WANTS TO PASS. IF HE WANTS TO PASS, that's fine. IF HE DOESN'T, then thats fine. I cannot control, nor can any officer control, what other members, send as far as tells go, to other members. If we dont see it happen, how in the world can you expect as to react or do anything about it? Basically it comes down to this: a) Do you have higher PR? b) Do you want to bid on an item? Even if someone sends you a tell asking you to pass, its up to you to decide if you want to pass or not........THAT"S IT. IF you do not like or respect that person, then by all means bid away and take that item away from the person, i cannot control this crap.

Wamba and Dee. The whole people sending tells to the person trying to influence them not to bid is complete bullshit. If they have a valid point (that the item in question is actually not an upgrade, therefore a sidegrade, fine) but if it's anything other than that, then it's completely unfair to the person with the highest PR and complete bullshit

Refer to my section: I cannot do anything about what other people do. It's up to the person to decide whether or not they want to pass. If the person is passing, it should be for a good reason, not because they are being hassled. As for the person sending tells, if they could have gotten an upgrade, say from 2.4 badge gear, and they chose not to go that route cuz they are playing alts, they should be shot in the face.

Your inputs are invaluable. I've always aggreed to, supported, and hold the guilds addendum of the dkp system. We are hear to better ourselves in hope of progressing to places we once saw as others achieving. Unfortunately, I concluded there are assholes in the guild and we need them to fill up the numbers. I was confused at first when I addressed this issue, but with you dee and kajall inputs, I am less confused and more certain of our legitimate dkp system. Thanks for responding. -Wamba

Yeah, my point is Dee that you can just say something along the lines of STOP FUCKING DOING THAT PEOPLE We have a DKP system for a reason. When it gets manipulated by people being greedy and trying to get people to pass etc. It fucks up the whole system and undermines it. Can you control it? no But can you say something about it? Absolutely My biggest concern are the people in our guild who are really dedicated to the guild and are fully willing to pass on loot. Then there are the people who take advantage of that and guilt them into passing when they shouldn't be passing. I don't want to see those people being taken advantage of. When those people hear you say "People sending tells trying to tell you to pass on loot or what not is bullshit" it can make it much easier for them not to be influenced by those tells. That's all I'm saying

I'll admit it, other then arena gear, I can only get stuff from pve. The badge gear is HORRID for me, too little crit, too much haste, or no int, or lack of hit, so on. I have the 60 badge melee ring from the SSO badge vendor, is the only badge item I have besides my cloak. So I do my best in raids, then usually just log because I have enough cash to repair/buy mats til Wrath comes out pretty much, and if not, 2-3 days of dailies wil have me back in shape. There's nothing in heroics for me (Cept MGT which is impossible to group for as ret) and nothing else outside of raid or arena for me to use as an Up.

Note to anoyne who has been doing what Wamba described: DONT DO IT. If I catch any of you doing it or hear about it, I will either a) bench your ass b) give you a dkp penalty c) boot your ass d) Any combination of a, b, c.

If you are the victim of this please message Sysop, Mid, Daddi or Sariku, DO NOT MESSAGE DEE!

Dee, I don't know if we need to be that harsh. Mostly, I just wanted you to let members know that they have the full support of the officers/long established members to ignore those whispers. If people send messages like that it sucks, but it's not the end of the world as long as people ignore them :)